Everton vs Man United

Oh, and both Young and Doucoure on yellows, not good. Especially Doucoure's was just dumb, why argue with the ref!?

That should be a penalty. Young is a liability.

Armchair wrote:That should be a penalty. Young is a liability.

It is, and he is. Long way back now.

Armchair wrote:That should be a penalty. Young is a liability.

Agree with this. Nothing against him, it’s just he’s 38.

Myko off the bar. It's not happening for us today.

Can’t help but wonder if missing all these chances is somehow due to the mental pressure of us being in the relegation zone. We’d have buried 2 or three of them two weeks ago.

This is set to be Manchester United's first Premier League win by more than one goal this season.

Yep, our bogey team strikes again.

Well, to say that was underwhelming and disappointing would be an understatement.

Pickford didn't have to make a single save, did he? Yet he had to pick the ball out of the net three times.

Tonteau wrote:Can’t help but wonder if missing all these chances is somehow due to the mental pressure of us being in the relegation zone. We’d have buried 2 or three of them two weeks ago.

Yeah maybe. But on another day, Garnacho's overhead kick sails out the ground, Young doesn't trip Martial for no reason, we take a couple of those chances and get 3 points. 22 shots, 6 on target (vs 9 & 4 for United). It was still a good performance, despite the result.

Armchair wrote:

Tonteau wrote:Can’t help but wonder if missing all these chances is somehow due to the mental pressure of us being in the relegation zone. We’d have buried 2 or three of them two weeks ago.

Yeah maybe. But on another day, Garnacho's overhead kick sails out the ground, Young doesn't trip Martial for no reason, we take a couple of those chances and get 3 points. 22 shots, 6 on target (vs 9 & 4 for United). It was still a good performance, despite the result.

It really showed the gulf in quality between the two teams though. Utd scored on their chances, while we didn't. Down to bad luck? Maybe that had something to do with it, but fooking hell, so disappointing of a result.

Classic Everton

My fears were partly realised, I think - that the galvanising sense of injustice will only take us so far, until we hit the reality brick wall of our quality being at a level considerably lower than the likes of United, and all those other big spenders we now have to play in December.

It was very unfortunate that the steam was taken out of the day by an absolute worldie in the 3rd minute. United, for all their many flaws, have plenty of players who are capable of something like that. We then spent the rest of the first half doing an outstanding impression of August Everton - battering a team but not putting the ball away.

So, two things - first of all I'm reasonably confident that the appeal will see a reduction in the points penalty, to something like 6. They must realise that they've gone too far and have simply brought the spectre of an independent regulator (the very thing the PL is desperately trying to avoid) ever closer, due to the arbitrary and incompetent nature of how they've dealt with us.

Second, whatever the penalty is and whatever motivational effect it has on us for the rest of the season, this is going to be a long, hard battle and I'm far from certain we'll even overcome a reduced, 6 point penalty. But I'll tell you this, I'm quite relaxed about it. One of the fears of relegation is the sheer embarrassment factor, of a club our size going down after so long in the top flight. Some of the sting will be taken out of that if we know we'd have survived comfortably without the PL fucking us over. And also, I'm past caring anyway about the PL and our place in it and our role in it, which is simply to give the Sky 7 someone to play every week while they ride the "best league in the world" marketing train while simultaneously looking for ways to degrade it and maximise their own cartel dominance via super leagues etc.

I think I'm past caring. Everton will always be Everton and I'll love the club and stick with the club whatever happens. The rest of top level football, in both England and in Europe, can go fuck itself up the arse with a rusty iron bar as far as I'm concerned. This is the inevitable denouement of 25 years' worth of prioritising income over competitiveness, a Thatcherite "fuck you, we're OK" mentality that has created hundreds of millions of new fans of English football worldwide but has utterly destroyed the game, for me, as a competitive and relatively honest spectacle. So Chad in Texas and Ibrahim in Nigeria can keep their PL, I hope they continue to enjoy it, but I'm close to being done with it now.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:My fears were partly realised, I think - that the galvanising sense of injustice will only take us so far, until we hit the reality brick wall of our quality being at a level considerably lower than the likes of United, and all those other big spenders we now have to play in December.

It was very unfortunate that the steam was taken out of the day by an absolute worldie in the 3rd minute. United, for all their many flaws, have plenty of players who are capable of something like that. We then spent the rest of the first half doing an outstanding impression of August Everton - battering a team but not putting the ball away.

So, two things - first of all I'm reasonably confident that the appeal will see a reduction in the points penalty, to something like 6. They must realise that they've gone too far and have simply brought the spectre of an independent regulator (the very thing the PL is desperately trying to avoid) ever closer, due to the arbitrary and incompetent nature of how they've dealt with us.

Second, whatever the penalty is and whatever motivational effect it has on us for the rest of the season, this is going to be a long, hard battle and I'm far from certain we'll even overcome a reduced, 6 point penalty. But I'll tell you this, I'm quite relaxed about it. One of the fears of relegation is the sheer embarrassment factor, of a club our size going down after so long in the top flight. Some of the sting will be taken out of that if we know we'd have survived comfortably without the PL fucking us over. And also, I'm past caring anyway about the PL and our place in it and our role in it, which is simply to give the Sky 7 someone to play every week while they ride the "best league in the world" marketing train while simultaneously looking for ways to degrade it and maximise their own cartel dominance via super leagues etc.

I think I'm past caring. Everton will always be Everton and I'll love the club and stick with the club whatever happens. The rest of top level football, in both England and in Europe, can go fuck itself up the arse with a rusty iron bar as far as I'm concerned. This is the inevitable denouement of 25 years' worth of prioritising income over competitiveness, a Thatcherite "fuck you, we're OK" mentality that has created hundreds of millions of new fans of English football worldwide but has utterly destroyed the game, for me, as a competitive and relatively honest spectacle. So Chad in Texas and Ibrahim in Nigeria can keep their PL, I hope they continue to enjoy it, but I'm close to being done with it now.

I've been there for a while mate and this is the exact reason why I never watch or give a flying **** about the Champions League. Other than Everton games, the only thing that rekindles that childlike excitment in me is the World Cup or Euros. It's an oddity, given that they are equally run with only on£ thing in mind and the added fact that I'm in no way nationalistic, but I do enjoy the tribalism, particularly since living abroad.

Goodison_Gringo wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:My fears were partly realised, I think - that the galvanising sense of injustice will only take us so far, until we hit the reality brick wall of our quality being at a level considerably lower than the likes of United, and all those other big spenders we now have to play in December.

It was very unfortunate that the steam was taken out of the day by an absolute worldie in the 3rd minute. United, for all their many flaws, have plenty of players who are capable of something like that. We then spent the rest of the first half doing an outstanding impression of August Everton - battering a team but not putting the ball away.

So, two things - first of all I'm reasonably confident that the appeal will see a reduction in the points penalty, to something like 6. They must realise that they've gone too far and have simply brought the spectre of an independent regulator (the very thing the PL is desperately trying to avoid) ever closer, due to the arbitrary and incompetent nature of how they've dealt with us.

Second, whatever the penalty is and whatever motivational effect it has on us for the rest of the season, this is going to be a long, hard battle and I'm far from certain we'll even overcome a reduced, 6 point penalty. But I'll tell you this, I'm quite relaxed about it. One of the fears of relegation is the sheer embarrassment factor, of a club our size going down after so long in the top flight. Some of the sting will be taken out of that if we know we'd have survived comfortably without the PL fucking us over. And also, I'm past caring anyway about the PL and our place in it and our role in it, which is simply to give the Sky 7 someone to play every week while they ride the "best league in the world" marketing train while simultaneously looking for ways to degrade it and maximise their own cartel dominance via super leagues etc.

I think I'm past caring. Everton will always be Everton and I'll love the club and stick with the club whatever happens. The rest of top level football, in both England and in Europe, can go fuck itself up the arse with a rusty iron bar as far as I'm concerned. This is the inevitable denouement of 25 years' worth of prioritising income over competitiveness, a Thatcherite "fuck you, we're OK" mentality that has created hundreds of millions of new fans of English football worldwide but has utterly destroyed the game, for me, as a competitive and relatively honest spectacle. So Chad in Texas and Ibrahim in Nigeria can keep their PL, I hope they continue to enjoy it, but I'm close to being done with it now.

I've been there for a while mate and this is the exact reason why I never watch or give a flying **** about the Champions League. Other than Everton games, the only thing that rekindles that childlike excitment in me is the World Cup or Euros. It's an oddity, given that they are equally run with only on£ thing in mind and the added fact that I'm in no way nationalistic, but I do enjoy the tribalism, particularly since living abroad.

There is still an honesty, for want of a better word, about international football that has long gone in the club game, and in fact wasn't ever really present in the club game anyway. A sense of enshrined fairness, in that however big you are as a footballing nation, the players available to you are the players qualified to play for you. You can't just bring in improvements from other countries whenever you like, that's not how it works.

In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

While it's still possible for the likes of Turkey, Morocco, Croatia and even Wales to reach the last four of major tournaments then I'll retain an interest in international football.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

Goodison_Gringo wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:My fears were partly realised, I think - that the galvanising sense of injustice will only take us so far, until we hit the reality brick wall of our quality being at a level considerably lower than the likes of United, and all those other big spenders we now have to play in December.

It was very unfortunate that the steam was taken out of the day by an absolute worldie in the 3rd minute. United, for all their many flaws, have plenty of players who are capable of something like that. We then spent the rest of the first half doing an outstanding impression of August Everton - battering a team but not putting the ball away.

So, two things - first of all I'm reasonably confident that the appeal will see a reduction in the points penalty, to something like 6. They must realise that they've gone too far and have simply brought the spectre of an independent regulator (the very thing the PL is desperately trying to avoid) ever closer, due to the arbitrary and incompetent nature of how they've dealt with us.

Second, whatever the penalty is and whatever motivational effect it has on us for the rest of the season, this is going to be a long, hard battle and I'm far from certain we'll even overcome a reduced, 6 point penalty. But I'll tell you this, I'm quite relaxed about it. One of the fears of relegation is the sheer embarrassment factor, of a club our size going down after so long in the top flight. Some of the sting will be taken out of that if we know we'd have survived comfortably without the PL fucking us over. And also, I'm past caring anyway about the PL and our place in it and our role in it, which is simply to give the Sky 7 someone to play every week while they ride the "best league in the world" marketing train while simultaneously looking for ways to degrade it and maximise their own cartel dominance via super leagues etc.

I think I'm past caring. Everton will always be Everton and I'll love the club and stick with the club whatever happens. The rest of top level football, in both England and in Europe, can go fuck itself up the arse with a rusty iron bar as far as I'm concerned. This is the inevitable denouement of 25 years' worth of prioritising income over competitiveness, a Thatcherite "fuck you, we're OK" mentality that has created hundreds of millions of new fans of English football worldwide but has utterly destroyed the game, for me, as a competitive and relatively honest spectacle. So Chad in Texas and Ibrahim in Nigeria can keep their PL, I hope they continue to enjoy it, but I'm close to being done with it now.

I've been there for a while mate and this is the exact reason why I never watch or give a flying **** about the Champions League. Other than Everton games, the only thing that rekindles that childlike excitment in me is the World Cup or Euros. It's an oddity, given that they are equally run with only on£ thing in mind and the added fact that I'm in no way nationalistic, but I do enjoy the tribalism, particularly since living abroad.

There is still an honesty, for want of a better word, about international football that has long gone in the club game, and in fact wasn't ever really present in the club game anyway. A sense of enshrined fairness, in that however big you are as a footballing nation, the players available to you are the players qualified to play for you. You can't just bring in improvements from other countries whenever you like, that's not how it works.

In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

While it's still possible for the likes of Turkey, Morocco, Croatia and even Wales to reach the last four of major tournaments then I'll retain an interest in international football.

All Euro countries are dominated by a very few teams. With the premiership it is a few more than the leagues in Scotland, France etc. The hope of most teams is that they give the big boys a bloody nose now and again. The chance for efc to break in, has come and gone. "At least I got a couple of punches in" as we lie in intensive care. As with the latest vote by the PL clubs to allow teams to loan from other clubs within the club's family of teams. To change the rules there has to be a two thirds majority. So if 13 teams wish to try and change the rules that affect the big 7, the calculation is interesting. Thirteen twentieths.
What is concerning is how the power shift has moved to Qatar, Saudi and UAE. The fans are irrelevant in terms of being at the games. TV is king. I have my cerise corrupt sign waiting for the next time.

Yankthattoffee wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

Goodison_Gringo wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:My fears were partly realised, I think - that the galvanising sense of injustice will only take us so far, until we hit the reality brick wall of our quality being at a level considerably lower than the likes of United, and all those other big spenders we now have to play in December.

It was very unfortunate that the steam was taken out of the day by an absolute worldie in the 3rd minute. United, for all their many flaws, have plenty of players who are capable of something like that. We then spent the rest of the first half doing an outstanding impression of August Everton - battering a team but not putting the ball away.

So, two things - first of all I'm reasonably confident that the appeal will see a reduction in the points penalty, to something like 6. They must realise that they've gone too far and have simply brought the spectre of an independent regulator (the very thing the PL is desperately trying to avoid) ever closer, due to the arbitrary and incompetent nature of how they've dealt with us.

Second, whatever the penalty is and whatever motivational effect it has on us for the rest of the season, this is going to be a long, hard battle and I'm far from certain we'll even overcome a reduced, 6 point penalty. But I'll tell you this, I'm quite relaxed about it. One of the fears of relegation is the sheer embarrassment factor, of a club our size going down after so long in the top flight. Some of the sting will be taken out of that if we know we'd have survived comfortably without the PL fucking us over. And also, I'm past caring anyway about the PL and our place in it and our role in it, which is simply to give the Sky 7 someone to play every week while they ride the "best league in the world" marketing train while simultaneously looking for ways to degrade it and maximise their own cartel dominance via super leagues etc.

I think I'm past caring. Everton will always be Everton and I'll love the club and stick with the club whatever happens. The rest of top level football, in both England and in Europe, can go fuck itself up the arse with a rusty iron bar as far as I'm concerned. This is the inevitable denouement of 25 years' worth of prioritising income over competitiveness, a Thatcherite "fuck you, we're OK" mentality that has created hundreds of millions of new fans of English football worldwide but has utterly destroyed the game, for me, as a competitive and relatively honest spectacle. So Chad in Texas and Ibrahim in Nigeria can keep their PL, I hope they continue to enjoy it, but I'm close to being done with it now.

I've been there for a while mate and this is the exact reason why I never watch or give a flying **** about the Champions League. Other than Everton games, the only thing that rekindles that childlike excitment in me is the World Cup or Euros. It's an oddity, given that they are equally run with only on£ thing in mind and the added fact that I'm in no way nationalistic, but I do enjoy the tribalism, particularly since living abroad.

There is still an honesty, for want of a better word, about international football that has long gone in the club game, and in fact wasn't ever really present in the club game anyway. A sense of enshrined fairness, in that however big you are as a footballing nation, the players available to you are the players qualified to play for you. You can't just bring in improvements from other countries whenever you like, that's not how it works.

In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

While it's still possible for the likes of Turkey, Morocco, Croatia and even Wales to reach the last four of major tournaments then I'll retain an interest in international football.

All Euro countries are dominated by a very few teams. With the premiership it is a few more than the leagues in Scotland, France etc. The hope of most teams is that they give the big boys a bloody nose now and again. The chance for efc to break in, has come and gone. "At least I got a couple of punches in" as we lie in intensive care. As with the latest vote by the PL clubs to allow teams to loan from other clubs within the club's family of teams. To change the rules there has to be a two thirds majority. So if 13 teams wish to try and change the rules that affect the big 7, the calculation is interesting. Thirteen twentieths.
What is concerning is how the power shift has moved to Qatar, Saudi and UAE. The fans are irrelevant in terms of being at the games. TV is king. I have my cerise corrupt sign waiting for the next time.

Yes fuck 'em all. So far this season, I've only been to two home league games, and a home league cup game. I've given my season ticket away for the rest of them, and the only game I'm going to between now and January is the League Cup game against Fulham. I'd love to see us win that trophy, or at least get to Wembley, but obviously the chances of us not facing - and getting beaten by - the Shite is almost non-existent.

But, overall, I'm losing interest in the weekly grind of us trying to stay in the PL, especially with our points deduction. If I was a Villa fan, I'd probably be at every game - so there is hope for the competition. Even the Barcodes are mixing it up a bit, though I loathe the fat cunts and their blood money. I dunno, it's hard to give a fuck when you're struggling to stay in the league every year, especially when you're totally fucked over by the League itself.

I have a bad case of Evertonitis, with a side-order of Premierleaguephobia. I hope to recover at some point.

hairy cataract wrote:
Yes fuck 'em all.  So far this season, I've only been to two home league games, and a home league cup game.  I've given my season ticket away for the rest of them, and the only game I'm going to between now and January is the League Cup game against Fulham.  I'd love to see us win that trophy, or at least get to Wembley, but obviously the chances of us not facing - and getting beaten by - the Shite is almost non-existent.

But, overall, I'm losing interest in the weekly grind of us trying to stay in the PL, especially with our points deduction. If I was a Villa fan, I'd probably be at every game - so there is hope for the competition.  Even the Barcodes are mixing it up a bit, though I loathe the fat cunts and their blood money.  I dunno, it's hard to give a fuck when you're struggling to stay in the league every year, especially when you're totally fucked over by the League itself.

I have a bad case of Evertonitis, with a side-order of Premierleaguephobia. I hope to recover at some point.

Good luck to Villa, who seem to have turned from an Everton-like shambles into a big boy version of Brighton remarkably quickly. The £100m they got in return for letting Grealish go and sit on the City subs bench kickstarted it all. They were able to reinvest that money (and plenty more) into the squad, built a new team on the back of it basically. We got the same amount for Gordon and Richie and spent most of it servicing debt.

I'd love to see Villa hanging around for a bit at the top. I fear they won't, but they are of course an obvious example of what a club of our size could be capable of when they manage themselves properly. How sustainable is it though? We're only a third of the season in, and I also fear for them keeping hold of Emery if someone like Real Madrid or Inter Milan were to try and get him. He had four years at Sevilla, but apart from that he's never been a job for longer than two seasons. He might fancy another crack at a mega club.

So yeah, I might think differently about the closed shop nature of the PL upper echelons if we look back in three or four years' time and see that Villa are still up there, pissing the super league clubs off. I think that's unlikely, sadly.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

Goodison_Gringo wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:My fears were partly realised, I think - that the galvanising sense of injustice will only take us so far, until we hit the reality brick wall of our quality being at a level considerably lower than the likes of United, and all those other big spenders we now have to play in December.

It was very unfortunate that the steam was taken out of the day by an absolute worldie in the 3rd minute. United, for all their many flaws, have plenty of players who are capable of something like that. We then spent the rest of the first half doing an outstanding impression of August Everton - battering a team but not putting the ball away.

So, two things - first of all I'm reasonably confident that the appeal will see a reduction in the points penalty, to something like 6. They must realise that they've gone too far and have simply brought the spectre of an independent regulator (the very thing the PL is desperately trying to avoid) ever closer, due to the arbitrary and incompetent nature of how they've dealt with us.

Second, whatever the penalty is and whatever motivational effect it has on us for the rest of the season, this is going to be a long, hard battle and I'm far from certain we'll even overcome a reduced, 6 point penalty. But I'll tell you this, I'm quite relaxed about it. One of the fears of relegation is the sheer embarrassment factor, of a club our size going down after so long in the top flight. Some of the sting will be taken out of that if we know we'd have survived comfortably without the PL fucking us over. And also, I'm past caring anyway about the PL and our place in it and our role in it, which is simply to give the Sky 7 someone to play every week while they ride the "best league in the world" marketing train while simultaneously looking for ways to degrade it and maximise their own cartel dominance via super leagues etc.

I think I'm past caring. Everton will always be Everton and I'll love the club and stick with the club whatever happens. The rest of top level football, in both England and in Europe, can go fuck itself up the arse with a rusty iron bar as far as I'm concerned. This is the inevitable denouement of 25 years' worth of prioritising income over competitiveness, a Thatcherite "fuck you, we're OK" mentality that has created hundreds of millions of new fans of English football worldwide but has utterly destroyed the game, for me, as a competitive and relatively honest spectacle. So Chad in Texas and Ibrahim in Nigeria can keep their PL, I hope they continue to enjoy it, but I'm close to being done with it now.

I've been there for a while mate and this is the exact reason why I never watch or give a flying **** about the Champions League. Other than Everton games, the only thing that rekindles that childlike excitment in me is the World Cup or Euros. It's an oddity, given that they are equally run with only on£ thing in mind and the added fact that I'm in no way nationalistic, but I do enjoy the tribalism, particularly since living abroad.

There is still an honesty, for want of a better word, about international football that has long gone in the club game, and in fact wasn't ever really present in the club game anyway. A sense of enshrined fairness, in that however big you are as a footballing nation, the players available to you are the players qualified to play for you. You can't just bring in improvements from other countries whenever you like, that's not how it works.

While it's still possible for the likes of Turkey, Morocco, Croatia and even Wales to reach the last four of major tournaments then I'll retain an interest in international football.

I think this is why a lot of In-ger-land fans tend to be supporters of lower league clubs. I think they say the same about the PL as you do about the CL.
As an Everton fan, why should I care about the CL? It's basically the same clubs in it, year after year; and even if there are a few newcomers each season, then it's basically the same clubs in the Quarter Finals every year. Maybe City will win it, maybe Bayern or Barce, but it will probably be Real Madrid again; it won't be PSG, not yet, but one day soon. Who cares?
And for the fans of Gillingham or Scunthorpe or Barnsley, who cares about the PL? It's the same teams in the top 6 every year. Maybe Villa can finish 5th - that's about as novel as it gets.
Whereas international football is still unpredictable and enjoyable. Norway have one of the best players in the world, yet couldn't qualify for Euro 2024. England have some of the best players in the world and get beaten by Iceland.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:
In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

I agree with you about the benefit. Has it made the club game itself less competitive though?
If there are 50 great players available, and 20 clubs vying for them, then some clubs are going to end up with no great player, leaving them with 11 mediocrities; while some lucky/rich clubs might end up with a few great players.
If there are 300 great players available, then every club should be able to get more or less a full team of great players; some lucky clubs might end up with a surplus, but even the less lucky clubs should have 10 or 11 great players, albeit with a mediocre bench.
In theory, having more great players available should make the league more competitive.

fourdoors wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:
In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

I agree with you about the benefit. Has it made the club game itself less competitive though?
If there are 50 great players available, and 20 clubs vying for them, then some clubs are going to end up with no great player, leaving them with 11 mediocrities; while some lucky/rich clubs might end up with a few great players.
If there are 300 great players available, then every club should be able to get more or less a full team of great players; some lucky clubs might end up with a surplus, but even the less lucky clubs should have 10 or 11 great players, albeit with a mediocre bench.
In theory, having more great players available should make the league more competitive.

No I'm not saying that the availability of these players from all over the world has anything to do with the club game becoming less competitive. The two things are largely incidental to each other. The club game is less competitive for other, separate reasons.

I say "largely incidental" rather than "entirely incidental" for the following reason - isn't there an argument that we now have clubs like Brighton, Benfica and Ajax just doing the big boys' scouting for them? They bring these 19 and 20 year olds in for £10m from Botafogo or Slavia Prague, they do well, and they inevitably move on to a CL club (if they're good enough) for £70m two years later. In one sense this is good for the likes of Brighton and Benfica because, of course, they gain financially. But the fact is that they're both very unlikely to retain those players for long enough to sustain a challenge to win the PL, or the CL, respectively. It keeps those clubs with excellent scouting networks competitive, but strictly at a certain max level. Don't go getting ideas above your station, lads, or we'll just encourage the player in question to down tools and not attend training until you agree to sell him.

And the CL perennials can afford to pay that premium on players they could have had for a tenth of the price two years earlier, because the cards are all stacked in their favour financially, given their massive revenue streams. The irony of Everton playing their first game after their points deduction against a club with a billion pounds worth of debt (LOL! a billion quid!) and whose squad cost a billion pounds to assemble, was not lost on many Evertonians at the weekend.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

fourdoors wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:
In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

I agree with you about the benefit. Has it made the club game itself less competitive though?
If there are 50 great players available, and 20 clubs vying for them, then some clubs are going to end up with no great player, leaving them with 11 mediocrities; while some lucky/rich clubs might end up with a few great players.
If there are 300 great players available, then every club should be able to get more or less a full team of great players; some lucky clubs might end up with a surplus, but even the less lucky clubs should have 10 or 11 great players, albeit with a mediocre bench.
In theory, having more great players available should make the league more competitive.

No I'm not saying that the availability of these players from all over the world has anything to do with the club game becoming less competitive. The two things are largely incidental to each other. The club game is less competitive for other, separate reasons.

I say "largely incidental" rather than "entirely incidental" for the following reason - isn't there an argument that we now have clubs like Brighton, Benfica and Ajax just doing the big boys' scouting for them? They bring these 19 and 20 year olds in for £10m from Botafogo or Slavia Prague, they do well, and they inevitably move on to a CL club (if they're good enough) for £70m two years later. In one sense this is good for the likes of Brighton and Benfica because, of course, they gain financially. But the fact is that they're both very unlikely to retain those players for long enough to sustain a challenge to win the PL, or the CL, respectively. It keeps those clubs with excellent scouting networks competitive, but strictly at a certain max level. Don't go getting ideas above your station, lads, or we'll just encourage the player in question to down tools and not attend training until you agree to sell him.

And the CL perennials can afford to pay that premium on players they could have had for a tenth of the price two years earlier, because the cards are all stacked in their favour financially, given their massive revenue streams. The irony of Everton playing their first game after their points deduction against a club with a billion pounds worth of debt (LOL! a billion quid!) and whose squad cost a billion pounds to assemble, was not lost on many Evertonians at the weekend.

..and no breach of the rules I believe... with no pending changes re: FFP ??

and we got nailed for 20 million !

..joke league with corrupt rules.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

fourdoors wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:
In fact I would argue that while modern football is fucked for the most part, one benefit of modern footy is the opportunities it gives to players from any corner of the globe, big nations or small, to ply their trade in a top European league. This has driven improvement in the competitiveness of the international game, while conversely the club game itself has become less competitive.

I agree with you about the benefit. Has it made the club game itself less competitive though?
If there are 50 great players available, and 20 clubs vying for them, then some clubs are going to end up with no great player, leaving them with 11 mediocrities; while some lucky/rich clubs might end up with a few great players.
If there are 300 great players available, then every club should be able to get more or less a full team of great players; some lucky clubs might end up with a surplus, but even the less lucky clubs should have 10 or 11 great players, albeit with a mediocre bench.
In theory, having more great players available should make the league more competitive.

No I'm not saying that the availability of these players from all over the world has anything to do with the club game becoming less competitive. The two things are largely incidental to each other. The club game is less competitive for other, separate reasons.

I say "largely incidental" rather than "entirely incidental" for the following reason - isn't there an argument that we now have clubs like Brighton, Benfica and Ajax just doing the big boys' scouting for them? They bring these 19 and 20 year olds in for £10m from Botafogo or Slavia Prague, they do well, and they inevitably move on to a CL club (if they're good enough) for £70m two years later. In one sense this is good for the likes of Brighton and Benfica because, of course, they gain financially. But the fact is that they're both very unlikely to retain those players for long enough to sustain a challenge to win the PL, or the CL, respectively. It keeps those clubs with excellent scouting networks competitive, but strictly at a certain max level. Don't go getting ideas above your station, lads, or we'll just encourage the player in question to down tools and not attend training until you agree to sell him.

And the CL perennials can afford to pay that premium on players they could have had for a tenth of the price two years earlier, because the cards are all stacked in their favour financially, given their massive revenue streams. The irony of Everton playing their first game after their points deduction against a club with a billion pounds worth of debt (LOL! a billion quid!) and whose squad cost a billion pounds to assemble, was not lost on many Evertonians at the weekend.

Ah, then I misunderstood your previous post, sorry.

It will be interesting to see how clubs like Benfica and Brighton progress from here. They have a ton of money in the bank and an excellent scouting network. Can they sustain it?
Southampton were doing good business a few seasons ago, selling their better players for lots of money. But they couldn't sustain that model, and slipped down the table and ended up getting relegated.
Brighton may be in a better position, with a better scouting network which allows them to sell a player for over £50 million yet maintain their position near the top of the 'Best of the Rest' in the league. But how long can that last? Will they just be replaced by Wolves or Leeds or Cardiff or whoever else establishes themselves as the next great feeder club?

On the other hand, it's human nature to assume that things will continue as they are. We could have had (and probably did have) the same conversation 5, 10, 15 years ago. None of us foresaw Newcastle getting bought by the Saudis, or City getting bought by the Emiratis. For a long time, Arsenal looked doomed to hover around 5th place for eternity, with Spurs perennially a couple of places lower. I'm not going to talk about Leicester winning the league, because that was bizarre. But Arsenal almost won the PL; Spurs reached the CL Final not long ago; Chelsea imploded last season. Things do change. Villa are joint 3rd after 1/3 of the season. Will their bubble burst?
It's also interesting to see that Chelsea, despite spending all those billions in the past few years (on top of the billions spent before that) are 10th with 16 points; that's only 2 more points than we won this season. Being a Sky club is no guarantee of success.

Maybe I'm fooling myself. I'd like to think that there's still the chance for a club with a decent manager (Villa) or a decent scouting network (Brighton) to break up the Sky party. But I suspect that if I looked at the clubs which finished in top 7 for the past 12 years, I wouldn't see many different names.

Over the past 10 years (2013-14 season to 2022-23):

12 different teams in the Top 6 (number in brackets shows how many years that team was in the Top 6):
Manchester City (10)
Manchester United (9)
Liverpool (9)
Arsenal (8 )
Chelsea (8 )
Tottenham Hotspur (8 )
Leicester (3)
Newcastle United (1)
Brighton & Hove Albion (1)
West Ham (1)
Southamton (1)
Everton (1)


8 different teams in the Top 4 (number in brackets shows how many years that team was in the Top 4):
Manchester City (10)
Chelsea (7)
Liverpool (7)
Tottenham Hotspur (5)
Manchester United (5)
Arsenal (4)
Newcastle United (1)
Leicester (1)

fourdoors wrote:Over the past 10 years (2013-14 season to 2022-23):

12 different teams in the Top 6 (number in brackets shows how many years that team was in the Top 6):
Manchester City (10)
Manchester United (9)
Liverpool (9)
Arsenal (8 )
Chelsea (8 )
Tottenham Hotspur (8 )
Leicester (3)
Newcastle United (1)
Brighton & Hove Albion (1)
West Ham (1)
Southamton (1)
Everton (1)


8 different teams in the Top 4 (number in brackets shows how many years that team was in the Top 4):
Manchester City (10)
Chelsea (7)
Liverpool (7)
Tottenham Hotspur (5)
Manchester United (5)
Arsenal (4)
Newcastle United (1)
Leicester (1)

So 52 out of 60 available places in the Top 6 have been taken by the same 6 clubs who have also taken 38 out of 40 available places in the Top 4.

I know our league has more teams competing for the top places than the likes of Germany and Spain, but its still very samey. In the US, there have been (I think, please check) 11 different teams competing in the last ten Super Bowls (ie 11 out of 20 available slots) and only the New England Patriots have appeared more than three times.

One painful aspect of this conversation is the fact that I find myself describing Benfica as a feeder club for the big boys.

That's Benfica, Eusebio's club, twice European champions, in fact the first club other than Real Madrid to win the European Cup. 10 European final appearances in all, now selling their best players to the vultures. Same with Ajax, Cruyff's club, who in those days were able to keep Cruyff for nine seasons and won three European Cups on the bounce while doing so.

Look at the list of different clubs that won European trophies in the 1980s:

Forest
Liverpool
Villa
Hamburg
Juventus
Steaua Bucharest
Porto
PSV
Milan (so that's 9 different European Cup winners in 10 years)
Valencia
Dinamo Tbilisi
Barcelona
Aberdeen
Everton
Dynamo Kiev
Ajax
Mechelen (that's also nine different CWC Winners in 10 years - Juventus also won a CWC, and Barca won two of them.)
Eintracht Frankfurt
Ipswich
Gothenburg
Anderlecht
Tottenham
Real Madrid
Bayer Leverkusen
Napoli (8 different winners of the UEFA Cup - Gothenburg and Real Madrid won it twice)

30 European trophies shared around 25 different clubs from loads of different countries in a single decade. Fantastic. With the list containing some unlikely names - Tbilisi, Ipswich, Mechelen, Aberdeen, Clough's Forest (I often wonder what sort of managerial career Clough would have had if he'd been around 30 years later. Probably now managing Inter Milan having already won European trophies with Man U, Bayern Munich, PSG and Barcelona and still having been sacked by all of them. Part of the super-manager merry-go-round, no doubt. Imagine a world in which Ancelotti had stuck with Reggiana, his first managerial job, and won two European Cups with them.)

I digress. Now, teams that won a European trophy in the 2010s.

Inter Milan (1 Champions League)
Barcelona (2 Champions Leagues)
Atletico Madrid (3 UEFA Cups)
Porto (1 UEFA Cup)
Chelsea (1 Champions League, 2 UEFA Cups)
Bayern Munich (1 Champions League)
Real Madrid (4 Champions Leagues)
Sevilla (3 UEFA Cups)
Man Utd (1 UEFA Cup)
The Shite (1 Spawny Champions League)

Only two cup competitions rather than the old three, of course, and Sevilla in particular deserve all the credit going for their record. But what a boring list otherwise, not so much the smaller number of teams but the small number of powerhouse countries that they hail from. Spain have been dominant of course, winning 12 of the 20 on offer, and English clubs won five. Outside of that only Italy, Portugal and Germany got a look in with one each.

I suppose everyone would slag off a Mechelen v Dinamo Tbilisi European final these days. Oh, what a shit game. The CL super club mantra and marketing has conditioned us to think that, and of course all the best players end up at a few select clubs anyway nowadays. But for me that was part of the magic of football in the 70s and 80s, that someone like Dukla Prague or Feyenoord could rock up to Goodison Park for a European game and you'd know absolutely fuck all about them, but they could still play you off the park and knock you out.

I know they won't care about this but they've stolen my game and it pisses me off. Fuck the PL. Fuck UEFA. End Football.