Palace v Everton

Well if no one else is going to start the thread...


Sean Dyche makes three changes from the Everton 11 that began the 3-0 loss at Wolves. Joao Virginia replaces Jordan Pickford in goal, with Seamus Coleman and Arnaut Danjuma coming in for Michael Keane and Nathan Patterson.

Everton XI: Virginia, Mykolenko, Branthwaite, Tarkowski, Coleman, Danjuma, McNeil, Onana, Garner, Harrison, Calvert-Lewin.

Subs: Pickford, Godfrey, Patterson, Keane, Gomes, Hunt, Beto, Chermiti, Dobbin.


Looks like back to 4 at the back. Presumably one of Danjuma, McNeil or Harrison will play off DCL.

Decent start. Fairly even.

Eze booked for diving

We probably shaded that half but only a couple of good chances created.

Boring game. I gave up my evening nap to watch this.

We're a bit better than them, just a matter of composure now, if and when we get a decent chance.

Red card for DCL.

I see why the ref gave it, given what the directives are these days. But it just should not be a red card. Common sense has been removed from the equation.

The game is fucked.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:Red card for DCL.

I see why the ref gave it, given what the directives are these days. But it just should not be a red card. Common sense has been removed from the equation.

The game is fucked.

I like to think I'd be saying the same thing if that wasn't one of our players. The game should not become 11 v 10 because of a challenge like that.

McNeil looks crocked

McNeil now injured. They appear to be cutting his shorts off.

Glad we don't have to deal with two legs of a League Cup semi this month.

Fuck the FA Cup. End football. It's shit.

Looks bad

Doesn't look good for McNeil, carried off with his left leg strapped up.

Meanwhile in the last 10 minutes Garner and Harrison have both blazed over from close range. This game should be won. Very frustrating night.

9 minutes of extras. Plenty of time for a winner, even with 10. Palace aren't good, and they're really boring.

We had enough chances to win. Instead, we have a replay we don't need, DCL is banned for 3 games, and McNeil probably won't play again this season.

At least we ended the run of 3 straight defeats I guess.

FT 0-0. Replay.

Back to the DCL sending off - more and more nowadays I respond to such bollocks with a resigned sigh rather than anger. In real time the ref saw nothing wrong, neither did the lino. I was thinking "great tackle", didn't even occur to me there was anything wrong. A minute later and he's seeing a straight red.

I don't think I want to watch this shit anymore.

It feels like everyone knows that VAR needs a re-set, but nobody is prepared to do it. As Dyche pointed out, if you slow down the DCL tackle to make it look bad, you could also slow down the Beto foul and we get a pen - and if you slowed down Hughes's second bad foul, he would have got a red too. There is no consistency, because VAR seems to be selecting incidents at random. That can't work.

For me, the only solution is to remember that it was supposed to be about clear and obvious errors. So VAR shouildn't be allowed to apply slow motion to an incident. It should be used almost entirely for obvious offsides or very clear penalties, nothing else. Otherwise scrap it and we can have the inconsistencies of real time reffing which would save us from the interminable waits for VAR inconsistencies.

I feel it must change soon, unless they are deliberately promoting controversies in order to make the game more exciting for the armchair fans, which is entirely plausible.

What an absolute disaster. DCL sending off a complete joke and we lose our most consistent player in McNeil. And a fucking replay we dont need. Should have played the reserves and just written it off. Every fucking thing goes against us. Cunting VAR, Cunting FA, cunting injuries. Just want the season over and done with.

hairy cataract wrote:It feels like everyone knows that VAR needs a re-set, but nobody is prepared to do it.  As Dyche pointed out, if you slow down the DCL tackle to make it look bad, you could also slow down the Beto foul and we get a pen - and if you slowed down Hughes's second bad foul, he would have got a red too.  There is no consistency, because VAR seems to be selecting incidents at random.  That can't work.  

For me, the only solution is to remember that it was supposed to be about clear and obvious errors.  So VAR shouildn't be allowed to apply slow motion to an incident.  It should be used almost entirely for obvious offsides or very clear penalties, nothing else.  Otherwise scrap it and we can have the inconsistencies of real time reffing which would save us from the interminable waits for VAR inconsistencies.

I feel it must change soon, unless they are deliberately promoting controversies in order to make the game more exciting for the armchair fans, which is entirely plausible.

Agreed, and I wouldn't be surprised if your last line is accurate - encouraging controversy for clicks.

It just so happens that more and more people in the media, and on social media, are saying similar things - that VAR as it's currently used is fucking up the game. I'm disappointed that not enough people are calling out the play-acting from players who are, to an extent, driving some of these reviews and decisions. The Jota dive the other day, when it would have been easier for him to stay on his feet and roll the ball into an empty net, is symptomatic of the practised and perfected instinct of most players these days to go down when they feel the slightest contact. Jota nearly forgot to do it, most players are better at it than him. It was pretty embarrassing to watch. Managers tolerate and (I'm convinced) encourage this sort of thing. I'd like to see this called out more, rather than putting all of the blame on referees.

The McNeil news from Dyche is a little bit encouraging - they're hoping it's only a swollen ankle, but they won't know for sure until the swelling goes down.

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

hairy cataract wrote:It feels like everyone knows that VAR needs a re-set, but nobody is prepared to do it.  As Dyche pointed out, if you slow down the DCL tackle to make it look bad, you could also slow down the Beto foul and we get a pen - and if you slowed down Hughes's second bad foul, he would have got a red too.  There is no consistency, because VAR seems to be selecting incidents at random.  That can't work.  

For me, the only solution is to remember that it was supposed to be about clear and obvious errors.  So VAR shouildn't be allowed to apply slow motion to an incident.  It should be used almost entirely for obvious offsides or very clear penalties, nothing else.  Otherwise scrap it and we can have the inconsistencies of real time reffing which would save us from the interminable waits for VAR inconsistencies.

I feel it must change soon, unless they are deliberately promoting controversies in order to make the game more exciting for the armchair fans, which is entirely plausible.

Agreed, and I wouldn't be surprised if your last line is accurate - encouraging controversy for clicks.

It just so happens that more and more people in the media, and on social media, are saying similar things - that VAR as it's currently used is fucking up the game. I'm disappointed that not enough people are calling out the play-acting from players who are, to an extent, driving some of these reviews and decisions. The Jota dive the other day, when it would have been easier for him to stay on his feet and roll the ball into an empty net, is symptomatic of the practised and perfected instinct of most players these days to go down when they feel the slightest contact. Jota nearly forgot to do it, most players are better at it than him. It was pretty embarrassing to watch. Managers tolerate and (I'm convinced) encourage this sort of thing. I'd like to see this called out more, rather than putting all of the blame on referees.

The McNeil news from Dyche is a little bit encouraging - they're hoping it's only a swollen ankle, but they won't know for sure until the swelling goes down.

Different sport, but I had the experience of reffing rugby with Team of Three (Touch Judges sending in decisions and also TMO). When the latter came into the game I was finally persuaded that it was for the clear and missed error and generally we got it right, especially on foul play. I still hate the use of slow motion. But my underlying impression was that it was a way for the TV companies to get involved.

In soccer in my mind when you look at the "David" versus "Goliath" matches I cannot remember when the VAR replay really went the way of the little guy - certainly the case in Uefa CL. Sure Real, Liverpool, City, Bayern, PSG etc get bad VAR decisions but generally in the games between themselves. Very rarely do you see the poor decision reversed in favour of the Sporting Braga, Keflavik's and the likes of us now.

THis, if I am not mistaken is the same referee for that Rhodri no handball two seasons back, yes that decision went against us and hurt us. It also as attuned out likely awarded the title to City the additional two points gained were vital.

The only way VAR works is listen to how rugby does it:

!. My decision is/was X - please show me the play (at normal speed ONLY) so I can review.
2. Do not provide a commentary at all to me. Let me, and me alone, assess am I being showed anything additional to what I already knew of the play that would render my original decision to be clear and obviously incorrect
3. As the match referee, I retain the right - as do my linesman - to stop the play (as in rugby) and ASK for the VAR to provide footage to clarify the strength of decision I need to adjudicate (Penalty, Penalty with sin-bin, Penalty with Bunker review, Penalty with dismissal)_
3. Upon review conclusion I will make my final decision.


We now have a caretaker on the pitch and the actual referee tucked away in a TV control room making the calls.

McNeil's losses our biggest kicking the groin since FFP. The one glimmer we have on a regular basis. What's up with him>

Clearly a nonsense VAR decision, but it detracts from the real issue, which is DCL was awful and seems to be getting worse by the week.

Goodison_Gringo wrote:Clearly a nonsense VAR decision, but it detracts from the real issue, which is DCL was awful and seems to be getting worse by the week.

Yeah, I'm sort of glad he is out so Beto gets a run. DCL is playing ok in the final third but loses all confidence once in the box.

Goodison_Gringo wrote:Clearly a nonsense VAR decision, but it detracts from the real issue, which is DCL was awful and seems to be getting worse by the week.

Genuinely think he just need a couple of goals and some confidence - probably a rest as well. Must be hard doing the amount of work he does and not getting the goals which mark a striker out as performing well.

Da Judge wrote:

Rotterdam 1985 wrote:

hairy cataract wrote:It feels like everyone knows that VAR needs a re-set, but nobody is prepared to do it.  As Dyche pointed out, if you slow down the DCL tackle to make it look bad, you could also slow down the Beto foul and we get a pen - and if you slowed down Hughes's second bad foul, he would have got a red too.  There is no consistency, because VAR seems to be selecting incidents at random.  That can't work.  

For me, the only solution is to remember that it was supposed to be about clear and obvious errors.  So VAR shouildn't be allowed to apply slow motion to an incident.  It should be used almost entirely for obvious offsides or very clear penalties, nothing else.  Otherwise scrap it and we can have the inconsistencies of real time reffing which would save us from the interminable waits for VAR inconsistencies.

I feel it must change soon, unless they are deliberately promoting controversies in order to make the game more exciting for the armchair fans, which is entirely plausible.

Agreed, and I wouldn't be surprised if your last line is accurate - encouraging controversy for clicks.

It just so happens that more and more people in the media, and on social media, are saying similar things - that VAR as it's currently used is fucking up the game. I'm disappointed that not enough people are calling out the play-acting from players who are, to an extent, driving some of these reviews and decisions. The Jota dive the other day, when it would have been easier for him to stay on his feet and roll the ball into an empty net, is symptomatic of the practised and perfected instinct of most players these days to go down when they feel the slightest contact. Jota nearly forgot to do it, most players are better at it than him. It was pretty embarrassing to watch. Managers tolerate and (I'm convinced) encourage this sort of thing. I'd like to see this called out more, rather than putting all of the blame on referees.

The McNeil news from Dyche is a little bit encouraging - they're hoping it's only a swollen ankle, but they won't know for sure until the swelling goes down.

Different sport, but I had the experience of reffing rugby with Team of Three (Touch Judges sending in decisions and also TMO). When the latter came into the game I was finally persuaded that it was for the clear and missed error and generally we got it right, especially on foul play. I still hate the use of slow motion. But my underlying impression was that it was a way for the TV companies to get involved.

In soccer in my mind when you look at the "David" versus "Goliath" matches I cannot remember when the VAR replay really went the way of the little guy - certainly the case in Uefa CL. Sure Real, Liverpool, City, Bayern, PSG etc get bad VAR decisions but generally in the games between themselves. Very rarely do you see the poor decision reversed in favour of the Sporting Braga, Keflavik's and the likes of us now.

THis, if I am not mistaken is the same referee for that Rhodri no handball two seasons back, yes that decision went against us and hurt us. It also as attuned out likely awarded the title to City the additional two points gained were vital.

The only way VAR works is listen to how rugby does it:

!. My decision is/was X - please show me the play (at normal speed ONLY) so I can review.
2. Do not provide a commentary at all to me. Let me, and me alone, assess am I being showed anything additional to what I already knew of the play that would render my original decision to be clear and obviously incorrect
3. As the match referee, I retain the right - as do my linesman - to stop the play (as in rugby) and ASK for the VAR to provide footage to clarify the strength of decision I need to adjudicate (Penalty, Penalty with sin-bin, Penalty with Bunker review, Penalty with dismissal)_
3. Upon review conclusion I will make my final decision.


We now have a caretaker on the pitch and the actual referee tucked away in a TV control room making the calls.

100% with you on this, Chris. Rugby has it right.

Red card overturned: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67922687

So VAR overruled the ref, and now VAR has been overruled by another VAR. Where does it end? How many times does an incident need to be replayed to arrive at a final decision? If DCL had injured Clyne, could Palace appeal against the overturning of the red card?

(for what it's worth, I think it was a red card. Sliding in, studs up, foot well off the ground. The amount of contact makes no difference)